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The SASS Wild Bunch Forum  |  Wild Bunch Boards  |  The Wild Bunch Wire (Moderators: Pecos Clyde, Happy Jack, Nellie Blue, Goatneck, DUSTY BODDAMS)  |  Topic: Winchester 97 vs. Model 12 « previous next »
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Author Topic: Winchester 97 vs. Model 12  (Read 8756 times)
evilroy
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« on: July 20, 2012, 10:38:51 AM »

Either is going to be a good gun for WB.  I just got my Model 12 and it is great.  Is it better than a 97 for WB?  I have 2 late model 97s which work really well.  I would say that if you have a good 97 which works it will be at least as good as a Model 12.  Will the 97 keep running good as long as the Model 12.  We will have to see.   The Model 12 is a more modern design and I think has a better shell stop, it is heavier, harder to load through the bottom gate, and the port is smaller so a one or two round reload will not be as fast.  I think it will be easier to get a 12 set up well and I would really expect a 12 to stay reliable longer than a 97 even though Wicked and Holy Terror have had the same gun for years and they run nearly perfect.  My own experience is not as good with the 97.  I do think the 12 is not as fast as a realy slick 97.  We will see.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 10:44:56 AM by evilroy » Logged
Goatneck
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2012, 11:29:00 AM »

ER

You make a good point. I don't think we will see any faster speeds with the mod 12,  just less break downs and malfunctions. Running a 97 or mod 12 with 6 rds at match speed does push the top of the curve as far as performance and endurance goes.  Time will tell how the mod 12's hold up.  From the Gunsmith's point of view the Model 12 is user friendly and new parts are avaiable.  I already have Mod 12's in the shop for Action Jobs. 


Goatneck
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evilroy
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2012, 02:40:00 PM »

Goatneck makes some great points and in fact gun and parts availability were two points which help swing myself and Happy Jack to join fellow Committee members Texas Jack Morales and Pecos Clyde in approving the Model 12.  The other thing I like is the shell stop on the 12.  It seems to me it should be more reliable than the setup on the 97.  However if you have a 97 which works well you are not likely at a disadvantage to a 97.
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Wild Bodie Tom
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2012, 03:17:11 PM »

So I just bought 4 of em for nothing?

Just kidding.


See ya all somewhere......

JUST SHOOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the best statements I have heard.......now if I can only do that.........Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Everyone, have a great week-end. And hopefully shootin somewhere.....
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Wild Bodie Tom
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Wild Bunch, and Wild Wimens
"Its not that I think you are dumb, Its just that so much of what you say you know is not true"
Doc Burwood
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2012, 03:41:43 PM »

Gold Country Wild Bunch, we are shooting tomorrow, come on out and have fun with us. I hear Tully Mars has a new Model 12 so hopefully he will be showing off with it. I'm still shooting a 97 but I am listening to all this talk about the Model 12...
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DUSTY BODDAMS
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2012, 04:18:22 PM »

Either is going to be a good gun for WB.  I just got my Model 12 and it is great.  Is it better than a 97 for WB?  I have 2 late model 97s which work really well.  I would say that if you have a good 97 which works it will be at least as good as a Model 12.  Will the 97 keep running good as long as the Model 12.  We will have to see.   The Model 12 is a more modern design and I think has a better shell stop, it is heavier, harder to load through the bottom gate, and the port is smaller so a one or two round reload will not be as fast.  I think it will be easier to get a 12 set up well and I would really expect a 12 to stay reliable longer than a 97 even though Wicked and Holy Terror have had the same gun for years and they run nearly perfect.  My own experience is not as good with the 97.  I do think the 12 is not as fast as a realy slick 97.  We will see.
ER, i think you have hit the nail on the head. i have timed myself with the 12 and 97 and can't see any real difference between the two. my thoughts of the model 12 were reliablility and availability. of course parts as goatneck points out are out there. i still think the model 12 will be a big draw to our sport  due to the sheer numbers of good guns out there at really very reasonable prices. dusty boddams
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Two Dot
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 04:27:33 PM »

But you have to be quicker than Bodie at  Cabelas!!!
Lol
Two Dot
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Coconino Pistolero
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 04:46:43 PM »

Bodie,
It is the Christian thing to share some of those Model 12's.
I can make a Christian offer on one.


A friend of mine said one of the 12's had a vent rib.  You get that one?

CP
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I kin nail him!
Wild Bodie Tom
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 04:51:03 PM »

two with vent ribs, 2 without.
Different places though.
Still lookin........they are all over.......

Good luck.............
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Wild Bodie Tom
Wild Bunch addict

"Guilty by association"
Team BROTHEL BOYS  Co-founder
Regulator
Wild Bunch, and Wild Wimens
"Its not that I think you are dumb, Its just that so much of what you say you know is not true"
El Mulo Vaquero
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 06:59:29 AM »

A few things possibly worth noting...comparing early 12's to 1938 and above models.  Winchester put a "flag" cartridge guide in as standard at this time.  I have run some early models fast, and with some quick movement, have had some cartridges get cocked sideways going into chamber or fall out.  The later guns with the flag seem to tend to hold the cartridge in postion a little longer.  Similar to the flag on a 97.   Regarding ribs, the solid matte rib--(for me) seems to point more naturaly.  The higher vent ribs, are well--higher.  Especially if you cut the barrel down at all.  The barrels on the 3" super speed & super x barrels are much heavier than the standard plain barrels.  About the same diameter as a 97.  They allow for chokes other than thin wall installed.  For close targets, chokes may not be necessary, but there are some matches with target placement or fliers further out.  The receivers are the same size, just port openings largers.  Any solid rib models or 3', or heavy ducks don't come cheap.  Least not around here.  You guys finding 12's for $300 are well---lucky? Grin   As far as checking for a empty gun, hammer down, it has been suggested that the slide release button be a indicator for this.  If the guns have not been carefully cleaned after decades of crud, the slide release won't always go up to indicate hammer down.  I suggest showing clear at the loading table for safety sake!  I have also seen a wave of 12's come into the shop for Wild Bunch.  I agree that a good running 97 won't be at a dissadvantage to a Model 12.  Neither of these guns were meant for this kind of fast shooting.  But we get another gun to play with!   El Mulo--Ken Griner
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El Mulo Vaquero----Ken Griner
Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 07:08:47 AM »

Wish my experience with the Mod 12 was equivalent, though I did find one more on Thursday.  It was a 20ga, not much finsih left and pretty loose with a price of $399.  Still looking at two in pretty good shape at the one shop but $650 and the huge funky external chokes just seems out of line with what I am hearing from most of you guys?  They also have a standard pidgin grade model that looks pretty nice BUT $2000 is out of my league!  The search will continue with the one big hope, that I can find one or two before Wild Bunch catches on here.   So far only couple or so are shooting WB, as a category, in with the regular monthly cowboy match but I hope to see that change soon.

PS: While waiting to find one, where would one look for any information on the Model 12, intrruction manual, disassembly/assembly and or operation?  
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VICIOUS
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Posts: 107


« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2012, 07:15:05 AM »

HI; The model 12 could be good for the club, local shooter who come out once in awhile and do not wish  to or have a HOT gunsmith to soup up a race gun.
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evilroy
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2012, 08:31:42 AM »

I think it is true that an out of the box 12 is much better than a stock 97.  I would agree that it takes more of an effort to get a 97 running really well.  Some 12s I have cycled are pretty good with no work.  A good cleaning and tune by a gun smith will help  them however.
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evilroy
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2012, 08:36:29 AM »

Ken Griner makes a good point abut having to really watch the loading table to insure the hammer is down before loading shells into the botom.  Turns out there is no real indicator that the hammer is down that you can see other that having the shooter pull the trigger after closing the gun and before loading the gun.  We will have to be very careful to insure no one gets to the line with the hammer back.  Not as good as the 97 in this respect.
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J. Frank Norfleet
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2012, 09:07:35 AM »

Bought mine on GunBroker delivered to my FFL for $310, (field grade, 90% blueing, made in 1954) $20 for the transfer and it is mine.  There are loads of them on GunBroker for a reasonable price.  Now a little bit of work like chop the barrel and replace the fat flat bottomed forend with a "corn cob" forend when I find one.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 09:41:24 AM by J. Frank Norfleet » Logged

"Pilgrim, life is hard - It's a lot harder when you're stupid."  Marion Mitchell Morrison

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein
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The SASS Wild Bunch Forum  |  Wild Bunch Boards  |  The Wild Bunch Wire (Moderators: Pecos Clyde, Happy Jack, Nellie Blue, Goatneck, DUSTY BODDAMS)  |  Topic: Winchester 97 vs. Model 12 « previous next »
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